Back when I first worked with Jana Werner at Tesco Bank, I saw firsthand how a crisis could be a crucible for innovation and transformation. Her ability to unlock potential in even the most challenged teams was unforgettable. Now, teaming up with Phil Le-Brun—a transformational leader I came to know through his work at McDonald’s—they’ve co-authored The Octopus Organization, a guide for thriving in an age of continuous transformation.
In this episode, we go behind the scenes of their book and explore the anti-patterns that hold organizations back, the behaviors leaders must unlearn, and the mindset shifts required to succeed when change never stops. Whether you’re a CEO, change agent, or team lead, you’ll leave with small, actionable experiments to start evolving your organization—today.
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Key Takeaways
- Unlearning blame-based leadership: Shifting focus from fixing people to fixing systems unlocks performance and trust.
- Spotting anti-patterns in everyday behavior: Habits like jargon, silos, and avoidance subtly block progress.
- Embracing uncertainty in leadership: Probabilistic thinking builds better decisions and psychological safety.
- Driving transformation through small experiments: Distributed action outperforms top-down mandates.
- Leading with curiosity in the age of AI: Execs must actively engage with tech to stay relevant and credible.
Additional Insights
- Behind the book: Why The Octopus Organization centers on 36 anti-patterns and how they uncovered them
- Real-world leadership stories: Lessons from Tesco Bank, McDonald’s, Amazon, and Ferrari
- Transformation fatigue is real: Overengineered change efforts often create fear and resistance
- Alignment breakdowns in leadership teams: Many transformations fail because leaders aren’t truly on the same page
- Reframing performance: Asking “what did you stop doing” reveals deeper impact than traditional goals
Episode Highlights
00:00 – Episode Recap
Jana Werner shares how she took over a struggling tech team, discovered their true strengths, and transformed their performance by rebuilding culture and trust. Phil Le-Brun describes the importance of creating a culture of trust in organizations, allowing people to test ideas and make a real difference.
02:46 – Guest Introduction: Jana Werner & Phil Le-Brun
Barry O’Reilly introduces guests Jana Werner and Phil Le-Brun, describing their collaboration during times of crisis at Tesco Bank, their leadership backgrounds, and their shared vision for adaptive, purpose-driven organizations as captured in their new book.
04:36 – Revitalizing a Demotivated Team at Tesco Bank
Jana Werner narrates how she took over a demotivated technology team, overcame her initial preconceptions, and transformed the group into a top-performing unit by changing culture, empowering individuals, and shifting organizational dynamics.
07:07 – Lessons from McDonald’s: Balancing Centralization and Agility
Phil Le-Brun explains McDonald’s transformation journey, the need to unify local and corporate efforts, and the financial impact of building trust and alignment.
10:16 – Learning from Industry Leaders
Phil recounts interviews with CEOs like Indra Nooyi and Benedetto Vigna, highlighting that true leadership requires humility, storytelling, and ongoing curiosity.
14:14 – Unlearning the Need for Certainty
Jana Werner discusses shifting away from needing all the answers and embracing uncertainty, drawing on insights from Annie Duke and other leaders.
21:30 – Small Changes, Big Impact
Jana introduces the book’s structure around “anti-patterns” and advocates for making small, distributed changes rather than massive, top-down transformations.
26:29 – Leadership Alignment: Avoiding Transformation Pitfalls
Phil highlights the need for alignment among leadership teams and points out common failures in transformation projects due to lack of shared understanding.
29:09 – Becoming “Technology Teenagers”
Phil and Jana emphasize the importance of leaders learning to experiment and engage directly with new technologies, encouraging curiosity and hands-on learning with AI.
32:12 – Start Small and Experiment
Both authors encourage listeners to pick a tip from the book and try it right away—emphasizing the value of experimentation, feedback, and removing old practices to spark growth.
FAQs
Q1: What is an Octopus Organization?
An Octopus Organization is a flexible, adaptive, and purpose-driven company that thrives in continuous transformation. Inspired by nature, it emphasizes decentralized leadership, trust, and small-scale experimentation over rigid hierarchies and large-scale mandates.
Q2: What are anti-patterns in organizational behavior?
Anti-patterns are recurring habits or norms—like jargon, silos, or blame—that feel familiar but sabotage progress. Jana Werner and Phil Le-Brun identify 36 such patterns in their book and show how replacing even one can unlock change.
Q3: Why do most business transformations fail?
Many transformations fail at the leadership level due to misalignment, unclear goals, and a lack of psychological safety. Success depends on shared understanding, trust-based cultures, and empowering teams to act—not just issuing top-down plans.
Q4: How can leaders unlearn the need for certainty?
Great leaders don’t fake confidence—they use probabilistic thinking and say “I don’t know” when needed. This builds trust, invites collaboration, and leads to better decisions in uncertain, fast-changing environments.
Q5: How should executives engage with AI and new technologies?
Executives must move beyond delegation and start experimenting. Jana and Phil call this becoming a “technology teenager”—curious, hands-on, and open to learning by doing to stay credible and informed in the age of AI.
